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belisarius
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 203
Location: Concord, NC
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:33 pm
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Fronzel wrote: | I once read someone say somewhere that Hagu's appearance is just to emphasize her immature personality |
That was a popular theory championed on 4chan/a/ during the series run, and I was one of the people who advocated it. The thinking goes like this.
Supposing you put Hagu in any other body type. If she is somehow exceptional (she's taller, heavier, more athletic) than the other characters then it's going to draw attention away from what her character is supposed to be about and, in addition, may add some measure of cognitive dissonance. Think about Hagu's personality in, say, that of a taller more athletic frame? In an art school setting, with her personality, it would lead the characters to react much differently to her than they do in the series (I freely admit to not having read the manga). If you make her just plain average looking, then she becomes even more difficult to identify with because she LOOKS like just another one of the girls. Her personality would be of even less consequence and her character of much less interest if there wasn't a visual projection of her personality.
In order for Hagu to be interesting (and, honestly, believable) she has to look the part. The Chicks on Anime correctly observe she is most often meek and soft spoken, when she says anything at all. As a story teller, you're going to find it very difficult to get the full depth of her character conveyed (especially in a visual medium like anime or manga) if she doesn't look the part. Visually speaking, everything about Hagu's appearance re-enforces her personality. It emphasizes her shyness, her sheltered upbringing, the fact that she is "new" to the world in which she now lives. I think most of us (male or female) if confronted with such a person (male or female) would respond in a protective and/or helpful way. Morita aside, that's pretty much what most of the cast of Honey and Clover do. If Hagu looked like she could take care of herself, or if she looked like she could blend into a crowd, or projected some level of worldlyness or maturity, then her character just doesn't work. If her character seems shallow to you, it may be because you're only seeing it manifest in her words and her actions when, in my opinion, the author also intends for it to manifest in her appeance as well.
Everyone else in the series is loud enough or assertive enough to let their actions and words speak for them, Hagu is not. That's why she looks the way she does, otherwise it's as you say, she's jut not that interesting. When you graft her personality onto her appearance, the whole becomes more than the sum of its parts and you have an interesting and engaging character.
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Tamaria
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: De Achterhoek
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:39 pm
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Quote: | acts like a 10-year-old, she cries easily and while she does try to strive for some independence she still wants to be taken care of. |
I don't think she's childish. To me, it seems as if she's overwhelmed by her new life. You have to remember she's from a small town and partly lives in her own little world filled. I remember other characters saying this about her art "this must be how Hagu views views this world." Now she's in a big city, attending college and everyone has very high expectations of her.
I don't think this is a result of her being childish, it's something a lot of college students struggle with.
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Megiddo
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:43 pm
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Joe Mello wrote: |
Also, I thought the series had a mascot; the firm's pet dog from the 2nd half of the series. |
Thank you. I was going to point this out. Anyone who has seen Honey & Clover knows that the mascot is Leader, and that Leader is one of the most awesome anime dogs ever.
Anyway I really disliked this column. I felt that it wasn't about Honey and Clover at all, but rather about Hagu from Honey and Clover. The themes explored in H&C (which I rather enjoyed) weren't even discussed at all. It's fine to bash on Hagu's character design for one portion, but don't have it make up 75% of the discussion and then label the topic as "Honey & Clover".
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vashfanatic
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3490
Location: Back stateside
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:46 pm
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Oh, just one last thought: how is this series "unequivocally un-western"? Going to college, falling in and out of love, getting jobs, growing up - you could easily transpose this entire series into a Western setting and not lose a darn thing!
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bigheart711
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Celebrating in Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:53 pm
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Honey and Clover was really a masterpeice on my book, but I seem to be the minority here. I'm not bothered by Hagu, but I'm bothered about her relationship with Morita especially after the "Koppokkur" incident (sorry if I misspelled it for those who saw/read the series), but then again, anyone would be bothered by that. All of the characters (including Morita) are very great, but Morita's a pain in the ass when he's with anyone in the series.
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Zalis116
Moderator
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6869
Location: Kazune City
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:08 pm
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Quote: | Hagu's timidness—well, aside from her design—is definitely the most "moe" thing about her, but it becomes clear fairly early on that it is an affect of psychological damage and a vice she has to fix, not a virtue to be fetishized. |
I agree. In fact, I've said the same thing about AIR's Misuzu Kamio, only to get replies of "Oh, that doesn't count as legitimate character development, it's just cheap moe artifice put there by the creators to pander to drooling fanboys [like you]."
For the record, I did like Ayumi better, even though her one-note unrequited love did get old after awhile. But really, I didn't go into Honey & Clover expecting to find female characters to fetishize / feel moe about / obsess over. I expected to find tales of the lives and loves of a quirky group of friends (in college instead of high school for once!), and in that it succeeded admirably. I can especially relate to it now that many of my old friends from high school have found real jobs / gotten married / moved away / had kids.
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Swissman
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 768
Location: Switzerland
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:48 am
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Quote: | Casey: Indeed. I got the feeling, reading the manga, that the Ayumi character developed due to a growing need in the series for an empathetic female character.
Sara: She's definitely the most empathetic, and the most human. |
Funny thing is, I talked once with two japanese women about H&C, one of them is a semi-professional manga artist. I remember both of them being fans of H&C but both really hated not only Hagu but also Ayumi. I don't remember the detailed reasons for their disapproval of both female characters but I think in Ayu's case it was for her willingness to suffer instead of giving up on Mayama and looking for another guy...
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jenthehen
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:55 pm
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Swissman wrote: |
Quote: | Casey: Indeed. I got the feeling, reading the manga, that the Ayumi character developed due to a growing need in the series for an empathetic female character.
Sara: She's definitely the most empathetic, and the most human. |
Funny thing is, I talked once with two japanese women about H&C, one of them is a semi-professional manga artist. I remember both of them being fans of H&C but both really hated not only Hagu but also Ayumi. I don't remember the detailed reasons for their disapproval of both female characters but I think in Ayu's case it was for her willingness to suffer instead of giving up on Mayama and looking for another guy... |
I agree with this ... it's actually kind of hard to empathize with Ayumi because she's so pathetic. Yes, unrequited love is hard and painful, but ... she never moves on. She stays heartbroken for YEARS.
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nechronius
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 275
Location: So Cal, USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:33 am
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It's been a while since I've watched Honey and Clover, but for some reason Hagu struck me as being possibly mildly autistic with a degree of savant syndrome. (nope, I'm no doctor nor do I play one on TV...) Anyway it just seemed that way to me because that would explain her social and communication ineptitude and her genius artistry.
In any case the character itself bothered me as well. The way that most others hovered over her seemed pretty unrealistic and a lot of wasted energy.
Having said that, I did enjoy the series and its side stories a lot anyway. Rohmeyer-senpai!
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Cloe
Moderator
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 2728
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:55 pm
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jenthehen wrote: | I agree with this ... it's actually kind of hard to empathize with Ayumi because she's so pathetic. Yes, unrequited love is hard and painful, but ... she never moves on. She stays heartbroken for YEARS. |
I think her inability to move on from Mayama is definitely presented as a vice; it's the character flaw she had to work through to achieve reinvention. How much patience you have will probably correspond to your empathy for Ayu; although I did (and still do, in a way) relate to her directly, I understand that her story can be exasperating for some viewers/readers.
That said, I don't think Ayumi's character is necessarily unrealistic. There *are* people who suffer heartbreak for years, no matter how hard they try to move on. That doesn't mean they don't lead otherwise rich and satisfying lives; there's just a part of them that stays a little sad, especially when they're reminded of the other person. I think it's more common than most people would care to admit, actually.
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