Forum - View topicHouse of 1000 Manga - Naruto Part II
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sunflower
Posts: 1080 |
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Not a cop out, but planned all along, and foreshadowed. This was telegraphed early on for me. By the second time we met Itachi I realized what was going on. It made no sense for Sasuke to be left alive so I sat there and puzzled it out. It was the most reasonable explanation. |
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Lynxikat
Posts: 75 Location: Maryland |
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For years, I always defended my opinion that Naruto was still good... but I believe the quality lessened around the Fourth Shinobi World War Arc.
While it was great to see some old faces, we actually don't see enough of them -- instead, we're bombarded with new characters when the cast is already huge, and the battles mainly focused on characters we don't care about rather than our old favorites (I think we dealt with the whole Asuma vs. the Ino-Shika-Cho trio for a little bit, but it wasn't given a lot of attention), but even then, I never thought Naruto was bad... ...Until the very end of Vol 65 where Sasuke is like, "I won't let my brother's death be in vain." WTF, where was this when you first found out about Itachi back in vol 43?! Why did it take you 20+ volumes to realize that if you enact vengeance on Konoha, it completely negates everything Itachi died for?! And I never bought for a second the whole "Team 7 is reunited" BS because Sasuke never mended his relationship with Naruto and Sakura. When Sasuke does truly mend his ways at the very end of the manga, it isn't fulfilling because it happens so fast, and Sasuke has spent 50 volumes of manga acting like a complete asshole. THAT is ultimately my biggest problem with the ending of Naruto. |
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2224 |
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Or, more obviously, it was done at the last minute because Itachi keeping Sasuke alive for shits and giggles due to martial reasons stemming from an alien and not very easy-to-understand warrior code was far too interesting for Kishimoto to get his head around. Kishimoto trying to pull a 180 after all the horrifying things Itachi did with zero repentance and hesitation is the stuff of unintentional parody. It's the kind of thing that nobody guessed because everyone logical would have said "We don't think that because it's stupid." |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3490 Location: Back stateside |
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Or, you know, villains can be complicated. Being a villain necessarily doesn't mean "Mwahaha I'll kill you all I care for no one totally horrible in every way person." My theory was that Itachi had been brutally abused in his upbringing as a prodigy, killed everyone he blamed for it, resented Sasuke, but couldn't, ultimately, bring himself to kill his little brother who wasn't responsible for anything. To paraphrase 3:10 to Yuma, "Even bad men love their little brothers." Maybe he has some twisted idea that his beloved little brother should be the one to kill him and bring the whole cycle of "justice" full circle. Maybe he just wanted to drive Sasuke as insane as he was. Anything other than "I was made to do it and I didn't want to, which makes me totally a good guy!" |
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2224 |
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What's REALLY funny is that trying to pull the "good all along" twist also had the unfortunate side effect of making Itachi looking like a complete and utter moron. The fact that characters kept making so many mistakes for pretty inane reasons made me start to hate a LOT of the cast. I can't sympathize with someone who makes such terrible mistakes. |
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residentgrigo
Posts: 2430 Location: Germany |
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So may nice competents''. Go read Berserk it makes you strong !
I have read 110 Volumes of Kazuo Koike´s(he is secretly a bad writer who happened to work with some of the best artists ever) Nijitte Monogatari in one day. That thing is basically Lone Wolf and Cub the porno. At least 40% are devoted to sex and orgys. This has to be some record. It even went through 3 art styles over the years. Thank god i stopped reading pulp. I also watched Blood+ in nearly one sitting. My personal best is watched all of Gundam up to Seed Destiny(with the exception of G and SD crap and the already seen Wing)after school till i went to bed. I then continued watching at school on my psp. I could write a book about Gundam and Tomino by now. Watching all of Seed in my free time outside of school nearly destroyed me. For anyone who cares just google my account-name and the name of the manga updating(can´t link it) to read more of my rambling(my Wolf Guy review is my pride) that i do to keep my english skills up to date. I also feed on hateful comments. The ones on my amazon review for Seikon no Qwaser always mange to amuse me. I will also write a review of Cross Ange based on reading 2 picture blogs and it´s 4chan forum(they don´t actually like it !?!) and not watching it for real. I value my sanity and will be able to forget it sooner that way. Consider it my revenge for Seed! Look for it a few days after the anime ends on it´s review page. Ho boy do i have thing to say already ! Especially Jesus Yamato´s mullet. The post Seed unemployment years must have hit him hard. I have also written a novel about the ending. Type in residentgrigo AND So, Naruto Came To ? The End ? !! into google. I also would like to point out that Bleach is 100% fujoshi porn. I sometimes read and watch porn for women to get into their psychology(i may be insane) and it is hitting ALL the marks. Now for my question to the board. Does a manga with more retcons then Naruto exist ? I have only read a few thousand different series(yes i did) and only american superheroes have more. Geoff Johns is the king of kings of retcons there. |
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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I feel like Bleach must have had a lot of retcons, but they wouldn't be necessarily obvious considering the series constantly pulls stuff from out of nowhere, and Tite Kubo keeps things blank and empty so he can fill them in later however he wants.
I haven't seen Cure, but surely he can't be worse than Dr. Mabuse.
Well, he's the only one alive who can do it, and he's only one person. Considering people seem to like to learn and create jutsu that few to no other people use, I suppose it all evens out. If you learn carpentry and build a house, you won't need to turn to Yamato for help, and that clears him to do stuff he wants to do.
Beyond a doubt, Naruto uses the superpower of cloning oneself to much better use than any American comic book superhero with comparable powers I've read or seen. Multi Man from The Impossibles uses his cloning powers solely to run faster or surround enemies.
What was that important bit? I want to know if I missed it or not. |
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gedata
Posts: 615 |
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I think this was summed up well when Naruto said spoiler[Obito was "a pretty cool guy". The same person who tried to murder him when they first met (when he was a baby no less!) on top of all the grief he helped caused throughout the series] |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1363 |
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I am not surprised at all that many people do not understand Pain to Tobi/Obito to Madara to Zetsu to Kaguya main villains progression.
This comes from superficial reading of the manga. If you track all of events in it for its fifteen years, you can easily see that without either of those characters being bigger-scale villain mastermind, crucial parts of the mythology and setting would not be explained. As Jason wrote correctly, Kishimoto has thought this thing through and through. Every one of those villains is absolutely necessary, all of them are calculated and tied to the story from like decade ago or earlier. So it is not "repetitive last minute tricks that Kishimoto came up with out of desperation" or whatever inattentive readers might think. There is no doubt that this level of multi-layered story and reasoning is outstanding work of intellect, unparalleled in any of big manga, which tend to be much more simplistic (though it is not necessary drawback at all; it is just different type of the story). EDIT: this is not to say that this manga is anything perfect, including about the story: complete numbered list of thirteen strong and weak points about Naruto manga. Last edited by MaxSouth on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kadmos1
Posts: 13566 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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For those wanting a Naruto villain that doesn't succumb to TnJ, Hidan is a prime example. He's a foul-mouthed (at least in the scanlations and fansubs) sadomasochistic religious nut (the first 2 points probably being something people wouldn't expect of a religious nut unless it was a dark religion).
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2224 |
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Insulting people who found the story to be a mess is not an argument. If said criticisms against a work keep coming up then they are clearly legitimate; they did not just pop out of thin air nor do people hate something just to hate it.
Other ones would be Sasori, Deidara, and Kakuzu; none of them were sympathetic or interested in lectures from the good guys. They were evil for one reasons or another, like Sasori showing callous regard for the dead with turning them into puppets while getting into debates about art with Deidara who was a terrorist that only cared about his art being a bang. And then Kakuzu who was just a greedy, sadistic sociopath who took glee in taking people's hearts to extend his life. And of course they were also the ones that had some of the stupidest deaths. Last edited by AiddonValentine on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1363 |
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Orochimaru also had no pretty background story, nor he really turned into good person; just acted on self-interest. So I am not buying Jason's point about villains; you can not generalize.
There is nothing insulting about being inattentive enough to the story as it is has its own issues, as described in the link; people may be distracted by those factors. For another example, I am not attentive enough to manga graphic styles so I could only go as far as saying that "sometimes the art [in Naruto manga] is really great". If that is not superficial, then I do not know how to call it. And there is nothing insulting about it, I am not interested/able to go deep about art/graphics, I miss a lot of nuance; it is just fact. You might want to read the complains about different characters becoming main villains, because usually there is not much legitimate about it, indeed. Even you could not offer reasonable, legit basis for those complaints (and no wonder; as Jason has mentioned, Kishimoto has spend incredible about of time, weaving the fabrics of the story). |
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AgitoZ
Posts: 51 |
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I think you're selling Toriyama a bit short. He broke down after doing both Dragon Ball AND Dr. Slump. Take into account the one shots, other work like Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger, and he also had a heavy load. But, really, anyone would collapse under all the work the average Japanese comic artist does. |
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2224 |
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Plus with Dragon Ball he admitted to being a complete procrastinator. He'd often sit around watching TV until right before the deadline in which he'd then do about a week's worth of work in two days. |
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Kadmos1
Posts: 13566 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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Nagato/Pein were my favorite villains because of their back story. I find that the saddest death was Jiraiya's.
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